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Large coleman under 74 Ford

Posted By RileyF100 4 Years Ago
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chtrout
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Jeff,

You raise a very interesting possibility. I do know that “Col.” Arthur William Sidney Herrington (1891-1970) oversaw field tests of a Coleman truck on 9 Feb 1925, and then again in comparative evaluations against FWD and the Militor on 1 Apr 1925, both at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, while in his various roles at Camp Holabird, Baltimore, MD.
  • At various times, he is described as "Chief Engineer of the Engineering Section; Consulting Engineer for the Motor Transport Division of the US Army Quartermaster Corps; Chief Engineer of the Motor Transport Division of the US War Department; and as Director Engineering & Development (1921-1928). 
  • Perhaps the most accurate title that he used himself when writing up the official report on the 1 Apr 1925 comparative tests at Aberdeen Proving Ground was "Consulting Engineer for the Motor Transport Division of the US Army Quartermaster Corps." I take this to mean that he appears to have been a "consultant," or at the very least, loaned from one military branch to the other. 
  • On a side note, the title "Colonel" was purely honorific, Art had only risen to the rank of Captain during WW-1, and then Major in the Army Reserve. 
Regardless, Art Herrington was so very impressed with the Coleman test results, he then made fairly frequent visits to Coleman Motors in Littleton, Colorado to consult with Harleigh R. Holmes, inventor and patent-holder of the "Holmes Drive System" (aka "Holmes Front Drive"), the proprietary 4x4 axle of a Coleman truck. I had understood this relationship to become more formalized by 1926, and we know for certain that by early 1928, Art Herrington was the General Manager of the Coleman Motors Corporation "Eastern Branch" located at 314-316 Eye Street, NE, Washington, DC, and I actually have a "letterhead" piece of correspondence with the US Army Air Corps signed "Coleman Motors Corporation, A. W. Herrington, General Manager," dated 2 Feb 1928, with the above Washington DC address at the top.

The ubiquitous Coleman "C-25" light cargo truck; troop transport, light (TTL), and light semi-tractor (introduced in 1925) even became nicknamed the "Herrington Models," due to Art’s very strong influence in adjusting the Coleman truck product line to directly satisfy emerging military requirements from 1925 through about 1930.

Yes, Art Herrington did later patent his own 4x4 axle on May 15 1930, as you correctly note, and he then moved on in 1931 to enter into a partnership with car-makers Walter Marmon (1872-1940) and brother Howard Carpenter Marmon (1876-1943) to co-found the (re-organized) Marmon-Herrington Company (MH), also then entering the 4x4 axle and differential business, as well as specializing in both the military and heavy commercial truck-building markets.

However, Jeff, you do raise an excellent point. As Art Herrington had done in his various civilian engineer roles with Camp Holabird, et al, perhaps he did not enter into an "exclusive" relationship after all with Coleman as general manager of their Washington, DC branch – Perhaps he considered himself more of a consultant, and actually consulted for other commercial or military organizations as the very same time. Regardless, he was absolutely a key figure at Coleman and had a simply huge influence their emerging truck design considerations during the 1925-1930 time frame.  

Your comment that he consulted with the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps from at least 1928-31 helping to design the "standardized" QMC trucks built at Fort Holabird from 1928-32 certainly suggests he kept multiple hats on his hat rack at the very same time. This obviously overlaps with his fully documented tenure as General Manager of the Coleman Motors Corporation "Eastern Branch" from at least 1928 through about 1930. Looks like Art was "burning the candle from both ends," working for Coleman, while also directly helping QMC design the "standardized" military trucks that would ultimately beat out Coleman in the 1930s for virtually all future Army truck orders until 1941 with the coming of the initial orders for the G-55A "Quick-Way" Crane. .

Thank you Jeff -- as with any good researcher, I always truly welcome comments or new information that makes me go back and totally rethink, recheck, confirm, or adjust my research. We are all just trying to get this right...

May I ask your source on the QMC consulting from 1928-1932?   I would like to deep-dive on that a little more to gain an even better understanding of Art Herrington and the "many lives" he apparently lead, often all at the same time! 

Again, Thanks!!!
Craig

Craig H. Trout
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Researching Holmes / Plains / Coleman / American Coleman Trucks
and selected production partners, such as Columbian Steel Tank, Quick Way Truck Shovel, Howe-Coleman, International Harvester, Marmon-Herrington, and SnowBlast

Jeff Lakaszcyck
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Riley, here is a breakdown for the MC-9 front hub and axle. Unfortunately this is all the info I have, I do not have the nomenclature or part numbers. Hopefully this is helpful. From 1964 to 1984 Marmon-Herrington used components from several sources. Front axles with a MC prefix came from Coleman, MD from Dana, and MR from Rockwell.

Craig, your comment about Art Herrington working for Coleman from 1925-31 is interesting, I have not heard that before. What I do know is that Herrington was working for the U.S. Army Quartermaster Corps from at least 1928-31 helping to design the QMC trucks built at Fort Holabird from 1928-32. Herrington applied for a patent for his own front drive axle on May 15 1930, which led to his partnership with Walter Marmon in 1931 to build all wheel drive trucks. The early M-H trucks looked very much like some of the QMC trucks. Perhaps Herrington did some consulting for Coleman. He was at Ft. Holabird when Coleman demonstrated their 6x6 truck for the Army in June of 1929. My information comes from the book "The Marmon Heritage" and no mention is made of Herrington working for Coleman.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/423d4c44-0a36-471d-a4fe-e5e2.jpg

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/e9836e92-7be4-4e04-9680-3bfa.jpg

Jeff
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Marmon Herrington MC-9 1.jpg (3 views, 288.00 KB)
Marmon Herrington MC-9 2.jpg (3 views, 320.00 KB)
Geoff Weeks
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Is it possible you have parts from more then one front axle? I see one complete hub with brake drum to wheel studs on one side, and one hub less the outer wheel hub on the other, then these drive rings in the pick-up bed which don't seem to belong anywhere on the axle in question. 
 Could someone have broken the original front axle and partially replaced with another brand unit? I know I am a little out of my league here but just threw it out anyway.
chtrout
Posted 4 Years Ago
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I forgot to include that Howe-Coleman (New York) also held a license to install Coleman 4x4 conversions, but nothing in your post suggested that it might be a Howe-Coleman conversion.

Craig H. Trout
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Researching Holmes / Plains / Coleman / American Coleman Trucks
and selected production partners, such as Columbian Steel Tank, Quick Way Truck Shovel, Howe-Coleman, International Harvester, Marmon-Herrington, and SnowBlast

chtrout
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Yes, the in the "rings in the pickup bed" shot, the "ring" on the right is very definitely a Coleman "power yoke." Since it rotates with the hub, it is ordinarily covered with a heavy-dome hub protector, usually a "signature" recognition feature for Coleman trucks or Coleman 4x4 conversions when present.

As for any possible Marmon-Herrington connection, MH had a license to install Coleman 4x4 conversions from 1964 until about 1984, mainly on GMC trucks. These conversions were called the "MC-9" (as in Marmon-Coleman). – Watch for "MC-9" on any parts or data stickers you see. As a side note for any MH history buffs, Art Herrington (1891-197) had been with Coleman Motors from 1925 until 1931 when he struck out on his own and entered into a partnership with car-maker Walter Marmon (1872-1940) to form the reorganized Marmon-Herrington Company, which also soon specialized in heavy-duty 4x4 trucks for the military and commercial applications. Interestingly, when Coleman fell short in filling its huge (495) unit contract for building "AC-55-AF" double-cab Air Force towing tractors in 1951, Federal stepped in and built a number of "F-55-AF" towing tractors in 1952 that looked very similar to the Coleman model, except for the Marmon-Herrington hubs. 

Based on my research so far, I would not anticipate seeing an MC-9 conversion on an 74 Ford L8000, but it is always possible. Of course you may instead be looking at an actual Coleman 4x4 conversion, although I don’t recall seeing any Ford products at the Coleman plant in the later years (Ford conversions had been fairly common in the 1930s-1960s period, but then tapered off sharply, if not altogether).  Of course another possibility is that your 4x4 conversion was simply salvaged from another truck and mounted on your 1974 Ford. 

I will look through my Coleman 4x4 conversion manuals to see if any of the part numbers you cite match up with any of the Coleman company literature in my collection.

Craig H. Trout
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and selected production partners, such as Columbian Steel Tank, Quick Way Truck Shovel, Howe-Coleman, International Harvester, Marmon-Herrington, and SnowBlast

PZ 1
Posted 4 Years Ago
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chtrout is the Coleman guru. He may see this thread, but if not you could contact him.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Search?ParentIDOperator=1&ParticipatedUserID=792&ParentID=1&Update=1
RileyF100
Posted 4 Years Ago
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There are Marmon Herrington stickers in the cab with a no-slip locker switch if I remember right, but no airlines to the axle baring brakes and I couldn't find that ring-hub design anywhere but Coleman.
Geoff Weeks
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Now I may be all wrong about this... But I thought Coleman had a domed hub where as those are flat. May be a Marmon Harrington design?
RileyF100
Posted 4 Years Ago
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Updated the post with text under the pictures.
Tony Bullard
Posted 4 Years Ago
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The numbers are a little hard to read. can you post then in text? Thanks.


Tony


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