1948 White WB28T


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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
If you are reading this for the first time, here is where this story begins: http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/36322/Mystery-Truck?Keywords=mystery%20truck#bm36330

I thought I would start a new thread here on the WB28T. This will be a long term project as my work schedule doesn't allow me a lot of time off. Considering it was last registered in 1987, the truck is amazingly well preserved. There is little if any rust other than on the surface. It is also very straight, and seems to have been well taken care of and not abused. The bad parts are that the engine and transmission are locked up. The data plates indicate that this truck is equipped with a White 260A flathead six engine, but I haven't been able to verify if the 260A is still installed or if it was replaced with the larger 280A. The engine looks original, but anything could have happened in the last 65 years. Sometime in the past the frame was lengthened and this truck was converted from single axle to twin screw. A 3 or 4 speed aux was added at the same time. One of the reasons for starting this thread is to help me figure out what components I have.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
The engine in the WB28 has a neat casting on the left rear of the block which says "White Mustang". The engine in the WC28 parts truck says "White Super Power" in smaller script on the left front of the block behind the breather. Otherwise these engines seem to be externally the same. Where can I find some numbers to identify these engines ?

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I have no idea what the rears are, or what type of suspension this is. The front rear has a power divider with a spring loaded control inside the cab. I'm guessing this is a differential lock similar to what a farm tractor has, that locks the two rears together in poor traction situations ? I would appreciate any help identifying these.

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By kblackav8or - 8 Years Ago
It will be fun following your progress Jeff.
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
The suspension looks like a Hendrickson walking beam set up. The Differential lock would be a front-to-rear lock, with it engaged you would have power to both axles, but would still be able to spin side to side on each axle....but two driving wheels beats one.

No idea on the axles themselves, the power divider is set up the same as the one on my '60 International as it does not pass through the first axle, but they look different otherwise. They could be older international or another make. Try to find some casting numbers. International typically have a series of numbers followed by -R1 or -R2. I.E. 161018-R2(casting number from a 70's IH axle)

Tad
By Park Olson - 8 Years Ago
Eaton axles?

Wasn't the Mustang designation after Super Power?
By jhancock - 8 Years Ago
The design of the grille and surround is killer! I am looking forward to your updates as the adventure begins.

Jim
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
Jim I have heard that grill design on Jeff's White called the Packard style from some old truck enthusiasts in my area.Jeff I am happy to hear that you appreciate the spoke wheels also.Joe D.
By gcpete - 8 Years Ago
I have a 55' 3000 with the 250A. The block also has White Mustang cast on it. There is a flat spot below the oil filter on the drivers side, where the engine number and model should be.
By TonyClemens - 8 Years Ago
My '56 WC22 has Super Power White badges and the 250A engine has Mustang on the side of it. White offered a Packard engine in the smaller 3000 COE's, not sure if they were offered in a conventional.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Fred Dyke emailed me and clued me in on where the engine s/n should be. I found the boss on the drivers side at the top of the block adjacent to the head, towards the front of the engine. The WC has the big motor, the 280A. The WB which has the Mustang engine was only stamped "SB" with no numbers, so it is still a mystery. The engine compartments on both trucks are nearly identical, so I'm pretty sure it is either the 260A or 280A. GCPete, I'll take a look below the oil filter tomorrow and see if there is anything there. Thanks for the help so far.

Here is a shot of the grille for Jim. These old Whites had classic styling and the massive chrome grille is an attention getter.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/3c44d726-014a-4816-aa4c-adaf.jpg
By Wolfcreek_Steve - 8 Years Ago
The aesthetic design of these trucks was by Count Alexis De Sakhnoffsky White must have been very serious about the "look" of their trucks
http://www.coachbuilt.com/des/d/desakhnoffsky/desakhnoffsky.htm

PS He also did work for Packard!
By Daryl Gushee - 8 Years Ago
I just glanced down through that article that Steve linked, I'm really going to have to take a month and read that.(it's long) That man's designs were great, the fantastic streamline design was his specialty. Looks like he had a hand in a bunch of US vehicle designs, including Chrysler air flow, IH trucks, and Auburn.
By jhancock - 8 Years Ago
Thanks Jeff. Certainly the classic look and influence from the end of the art deco period. What passes today for design is a pale comparison.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I'm making some progress on identifying components. The transmission in the WB is a White 506B, a 5 speed with 5th direct. This transmission is original to the truck, but it is locked in gear. I don't know if it is a shifter problem or something internal. I'm not too worried about it right now. The transmission in the WC is a White 556B, with 5th OD. Both the 280A engine and the 556B transmission in the WC were available in the WB, so if they check out ok they will go in the WB. As for the rears, Tad is right about the suspension, it is Hendrickson walking beam. The power divider and rears are Eaton. I need some help identifying which model they are. I don't know if these numbers mean anything, but on the front rear I found 1 number, 37846. On the rear rear I found 2 numbers, 468512, & 34403. The rear rear is also stamped 7.06, so I guess I won't be going anywhere in a hurry. I'm not surprised about the low gearing, Ken told me the truck was used for lowboy work in South Dakota. I still haven't been able to get any numbers off the brownie, the fuel tank is directly over the top where all the numbers are. I haven't been able to get a mirror in to read anything. Hopefully it is OD.
By Wolfcreek_Steve - 8 Years Ago
Jeff, are you keeping the tandems?
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Yes.
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
Jeff, I agree with Park Olson that White used the Mustang name for their flathead engines after the Super Power name-so looks like it could be a replacement engine. The Super Mustangs were the Reo based o.h.v. engines. I have seen a very similar air brake Eaton/Hendrickson rearend in a 1956 International RF195-Eaton 34M seems to ring a bell. Later Eaton tandems were what they called a "through drive" setup where the shaft for the rear diff came out the back of the front diff head.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Thanks Hamish. I didn't get a chance to look the rears over again today, but they do look like they are from the '50's to me. However I finally found the tag on the brownie, and was surprised to find the White logo on it. It is not original to the truck, but it was available. Unfortunately the model number is not on the tag (or I can't make it out), but the White part number is 32023. I believe this is one of the BL 703 series, but there are 5 different variations so I would like to know which one I have. It should be a 3 speed. I'm guessing the "BL" prefix means that these were actually built by Brown-Lipe ? Did White build their own main transmissions ?

I'm in agreement that the Mustang engine in the WB is a replacement. I'm still curious about which model it is but I can look it over better when it is out of the truck.

I have seen the formula here many times for calculating top speed but I have never written it down. 10.00 x 20 tires, 7.06 rears, 7.88 to 1 od in the main, and either .84 or .75 to 1 od in the aux. Engine is governed at 2800 rpm (although it is probably not wise to run a 65 year old engine at redline), so how fast (fast being a relative term) could I expect this truck to go at say, 24 or 2500 ? Assuming I could afford the pay the gas bill LOL !
By TonyClemens - 8 Years Ago
My '56 WC22 has a Clark 5sp OD trans and 2 speed Eaton rear axle. I don't know the gear ratio but I think 50 mph is about all she'll do. Speedo doesn't work so I just have to guesstimate. The 250A engine is governed at 2800 rpm, I don't try to push it too hard. These are probably very tough engines considering how much weight they were expected to move.

Take some pictures of the engines showing the heads, carb and distributor. I'd like to compare it with a 250A. I've been seeing this engine on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-White-Truck-6-cylinder-Flat-Head-White-Mustang-Gasoline-Engine-Vintage-/321191383821?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ac87f930d&vxp=mtr

I need an engine for my '51 WC22 Jumbo cab but this probably wouldn't fit a smaller truck. It might fit the WB28.
By Park Olson - 8 Years Ago
Jeff, I won't spout numbers, as I'm unsure of my math, but you will be able to go as fast as you dare, if you can pull the RPM....:w00t:
By John Frances - 8 Years Ago
Jeff Lakaszcyck (15/11/2013)
...how fast (fast being a relative term) could I expect this truck to go at say, 24 or 2500 ? Assuming I could afford the pay the gas bill LOL !


Here's a calculator. The internet says 10.00-20 tires are 39.4" in diameter.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Tony, my first thought is that engine is smaller than mine. Here are a couple pictures of the 280A in the WC. Can't see much, I'll have to get some from the other side.

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By Wolfcreek_Steve - 8 Years Ago
My dad told of looking through holes in the firewall at night and seeing the red glow of the exhaust manifold at night on the old white he drove in the late 40s.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Here is a shot of the WB28 engine, it is hard to see how long it is as it goes into the firewall. It is identical in appearance to the WC's 280A.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/b144d4a0-22eb-4969-ac6f-6d45.jpg
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
John Frances (15/11/2013)
Jeff Lakaszcyck (15/11/2013)
...how fast (fast being a relative term) could I expect this truck to go at say, 24 or 2500 ? Assuming I could afford the pay the gas bill LOL !


Here's a calculator. The internet says 10.00-20 tires are 39.4" in diameter.


Thanks John, it looks like it will run at least 55 or so, on paper at least.
By John Gott - 8 Years Ago
Jeff;

I always liked the front end styling on those trucks, however, I think the designers sacrificed serviceability in the name of styling. Your truck along with Mack LH models come to mind, with those bat wing hoods and big sloping fenders, getting to some items is a challenge, I wonder how many fenders got scraped up while owners were just doing regular maintenance. Just last night I was changing the oil on my Diamond T and I have to remove 1 horn to get the oil filter cartridge out of it's canister!.
Congratulations on the trucks, I know it was a long time coming.

John G
By gcpete - 8 Years Ago
Jeff doesn't look much different than my 250A
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
That tilt cab sure makes it easy to work on. I see some differences in the head, my water outlet to the radiator is at the front of the head. It's hard to tell from a photo if the blocks are the same. Your engine looks great though !
By Shifty - 8 Years Ago
I wonder how many fenders got scraped up while owners were just doing regular maintenance. - See more at: http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Topic36847.aspx?PageIndex=3#sthash.FGL49Hpw.dpuf
I wonder how many fenders got scraped up while owners were just doing regular maintenance.

One of my cousins told me about a driver that came into the garage with a White that was having trouble on the hills.
Couldn't get the carburetor adjusted to suit the guy. Ended up riding on the fender to get it right.
I wonder how many fenders got scraped up while owners were just doing regular maintenance. - See more at: http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Topic36847.aspx?PageIndex=3#sthash.FGL49Hpw.dpuf
By wayne graham - 8 Years Ago
Jeff, I am only going from memory(getting poor) but SB stands for service block I think. So your block was probably replaced to the same engine that was in the truck originally. Lower end failure and cracking were culprits with block replacements. Evrybody ran straight water in the summer and alcohol in the winter till permanent anti freeze came along. Where I worked in the 60's we had a small fleet like yours. Some were ready mixers and some were tractors and one was our rail car puller. Wayne
By gcpete - 8 Years Ago
Jeff here are some pics of the block itself when I stripped it down, if it helps any. I'm thinking that they all use the same block, with a bore and stroke change. I know that mine is a 4" bore.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
wayne graham (17/11/2013)
Jeff, I am only going from memory(getting poor) but SB stands for service block I think. So your block was probably replaced to the same engine that was in the truck originally. Lower end failure and cracking were culprits with block replacements. Evrybody ran straight water in the summer and alcohol in the winter till permanent anti freeze came along. Where I worked in the 60's we had a small fleet like yours. Some were ready mixers and some were tractors and one was our rail car puller. Wayne


Wayne, I was thinking it might be short block but you may be right about service block. If I don't find any numbers I may never know for sure without pulling the head and measuring the bore. You are probably right that it is a direct replacement for the original 260A.

GCPete, I really like the White Mustang logo on the block. Thanks for the pics.
By Bruce Ohnstad - 8 Years Ago
I've never compared the big and medium sized blocks with external measurements. I think external lengths would be the best way to confirm what I assume, that there were three sizes of blocks, including the smallest blocks under 340 cid. Maybe we could get some measurements posted here that would be good reference for later.

The 250A and earlier engines had a 5.125" stroke and bores going up to 4.0" for a 386 cid. The 250A was preceded by the 362 cid, introduced in 1935. This size engine was common in the W22 series trucks and White cranked out a lot of them for 30 years. They had a 14" clutch.

The 260A and larger and later models had a 5.0" stroke. This size engine came out in the late 1940s. Bore for the 260A was 4.385" for 451 cid, and that block went to 4.75" for 531 cid. They had a 15.5" clutch.

White engine model numbers refer to when the design was introduced, and in the 1950s the last two digits preceded by a 3 or 4. There's little consistency.

White made a couple of main transmissions but most were Clark and some Fuller. 1950s and 60s Motors Manuals had the Model number conversions for White number to vendor number. One competitor info chart I have says the WC 28 used a Fuller 5A-65.

For auxiliary trannies White used Brown Lipe three speeds. White would badge them and give them a H prefix, for example I have a early 1940s 6H.

Jeff, you might just have to jack up a wheel (or push the truck a short distance) with the main in neutral and start spinning driveshafts to see if you have a .86 od or .70 od. For exactly one turn on the input, output shaft would be near 10 o'clock for .86, near 7 o'clock for .7 od.

Bruce
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Bruce, thanks for all the info.

I've made a little bit of progress on both trucks. The spark plugs are out of both engines, but it wasn't as easy as it sounds. Some of the home-brew penetrant and a breaker bar with a 3 foot cheater pipe took care of the stubborn ones. As expected, the 260A in the WB is locked up tight, and I have the penetrant soaking in each cylinder. Nothing to lose here, so we'll see what happens. The good news is that the 280A in the WC is free, and the starter will spin it over. I'm going to change the oil and filter, and free up any sticking valves before trying to start it. The bad news on the WC is that the clutch is frozen, which doesn't really surprise me. Hopefully it will free up while yard driving, if not I will deal with it when the engine comes out.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
My friend Frank Cowan took this Saturday. That's Frank's 1967 Galaxie 500 convertible out in the yard.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/7297442c-9993-4e27-b439-873c.jpg
By Bruce Ohnstad - 8 Years Ago
I happened upon a WA34 Owners manual that I forgot I had. WA34 would have been introduced maybe in 1939 or so. White did not have the big block then so it used the 362 cid. The manual shows just the single rear axle double reduction, the tandem would have been a different manual.

The WA34 had the 501B and 551B White badged Clark transmissions. 1942 Motors lists the 551B was Clark 270. White model 551 had .788 OD. 501B was 5th direct. The Brown Lipe auxiliary had 2.14:1 low and .69 OD.

Bruce
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Bruce, were the 260A and 280A the "big blocks" ?
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I've had the long weekend off from work so I have made some good progress. The WB28 has had the acetone/dextron mixture in the cylinders for over a week now and hasn't budged, so I have turned all my attention to getting the WC28 parts truck running and yard driving. I took the fenders off to make the engine easier to work on, I'm surprised they didn't fall off as they mostly consisted of bondo, fiberglass, rust, dirt, and a smattering of steel to hold them together. I cut off the remains of the driver's running board and replaced it with a wooden one, along with a wooden battery shelf. I found a key that fit the ignition switch so I fixed the wiring so the switch would work. Then I turned my attention to the engine. I pulled the top off of the oil filter canister and was surprised to find there was no filter. I actually found the correct oil filters for the Whites on Amazon, under the White part number no less, but they won't be here until next week. So figuring any filter was better than no filter, I took the filter out of the WB, let it drain, and installed it in the WC. I also cleaned the sludge out of the bottom of the canister and made sure the orifice was clear. Drained the oil and filled it with fresh oil. Ken had had some trouble with sticking valves when he had it running, so I pulled the side covers, squirted in some penetrant, and watched all the valves while turning the engine over by hand (the spark plugs were still out). I didn't see anything unusual so I put everything back together.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
This morning I put the spark plugs back in and then turned my attention to rigging up a temporary fuel system. Ken had removed the saddle tanks from the truck long before I got it. The fuel tank was easy, I clamped a piece of plywood behind the cab and bungied a 5 gallon gas can to it. I didn't trust the mechanical fuel pump on the truck and was going to buy an electric one when I noticed there was already an electric pump clamped to the firewall. I put some fuel and power to it and it pumped great. I wired the pump to the ignition. When I got the truck the throttle linkage was frozen but some penetrant and a little work had gotten it freed up. But yesterday I noticed that sometimes the throttle would jam up. There had been a huge dirt dauber nest inside the carb that I had cleaned out with a screwdriver and vacuum, but now with the throttle jammed I decided to pull the carb off and have a look. There was nothing obviously wrong, but there was a sealed plate with 3 screws that hid the throttle linkage. I took the plate off and with some lube and elbow grease I was able to get the throttle moving freely. Just as I was adding water to the radiator my friend Mark showed up and you can see how the 1st attempt at starting the WC went.

http://youtu.be/Y2gKrjJN7lc

By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I was really surprised how well the engine ran after it finally cleared out. It idled good and sounded like it was hitting on all cylinders. The frozen clutch broke free as I was backing the WC out of the garage, sooner than I expected but I figured with 400 ft lbs of torque it would break free sometime while yard driving. The air pressure never came up so there were no brakes, so I couldn't do much more than drive around the house. I didn't notice any obvious air leaks, so I suspect the compressor is not working. I'll have to put some air to the system and see what happens. Also, after it warmed up it pumped a bunch of water out of the radiator. It didn't overheat that I could tell. Neither truck had a radiator cap so I probably should have flushed out the cooling system, there may be another mouse nest or something in there, or maybe just a thermostat problem. Apparently squirrels had once taken up residence in the exhaust pipe, I noticed a trail of acorns in the garage behind where the truck was parked !

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By Bruce Ohnstad - 8 Years Ago
That's great, Jeff. That's a great feeling. You gave a good description of reviving an engine carefully.

I don't know if there's an official name, but I call the big White 5.0" stroke engines like in the WB and WC 28 big blocks. The WA 28 only had the smaller bore, 5.125" stroke 386 cid engine. Hard to imagine crawling around with that smaller engine. A friend of mine had a WC 22 with a double reduction heavy rear and a 5 and 3, but the WC 22 had the smaller block 386 cid. It was worked by a contractor on the Iron Range in northern Minnesota.

I looked over a Victor gasket catalog, and the smallest Whites and the 386 cid had the same head gasket. So maybe there were only two block sizes. Your dual exhaust manifolds look quite a bit different than the smaller block.

Bruce
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
Enjoyed your video Jeff. It's a great feeling when you start something that hasn't been run for a long time. Sounds like it started on about 2 cylinders and gradually picked up on all 6.
By Park Olson - 8 Years Ago
Great, Jeff, good starter there,:D,,,It's neat to get an oldie goin' again.

I like the sound of a big 6 gasser.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2gKrjJN7lc
By Shifty - 8 Years Ago
Good going Jeff.
It's great when one starts.
The gas tank story is familiar.
It was a joke around my house, because I used a gas tank from an old lawn mower to get my great big White 9064 going.
Sounds like maybe the sheet metal from the WB should go on that that truck.
By TonyClemens - 8 Years Ago
I still have the 5 gallon boat gas tank that was installed on my '56 WC22PLt. I had the driver's side saddle tank boiled out. The shop had to cut a few access holes in the tank to get out all the old crud in it. That old sour varnished gas sure does stink.
By kblackav8or - 8 Years Ago
She sounds great. Swap out your compressor governor or whack it with a plastic mallet a few times while it is idling and see if it starts pumping. They are cheap and easy to swap. On the cooling system, a trick I have done a couple times is to dump a whole box of "spic and span" in the cooling system with water. Run it for a while, at least an hour or 2, the flush and run a couple times then switch over to coolant. Got that tip from a fairly well known engine guy in West Florida, long time ago.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
Build a garage and the Whites will come!
By Stretch - 8 Years Ago
You didn't fritter away the long weekend like I was forced to do.:crying:
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
"If you build it they will come" - that has been my motto for the last 3 years. It seems to be working.

My original plan was to put the WB cab and sheetmetal on the WC chassis, but now that I have had a good look at the WB I have really fallen in love with it the way it is. So the WB will get the WC engine and overdrive transmission. Both were optional equipment in the WB.

I got home from Daytona in time to play a little. I pressurized the air system with my shop compressor and got it up to 90 or 100 psi. I didn't notice any gross leaks but it bled down to 60 in about 5 minutes. Even with the leaks I think the compressor on the truck should be able to keep the air up, it will only pressurize to about 20 or so. Anything else I should look at besides the governor ? I understand pneumatics but I'm a novice at air brake systems.

On the plus side, it looks like the generator is charging. That's sort of surprising since most of the electrical doesn't work.

That big six really does sound good. It reminds me of an old gas engine fire truck.
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
The governors don't usually stick in the unload position. As Kevin says a little cleanup is easy. Attached is a typical breakdown.

Actually the governor valve is a control vale for the unloading valves in the compressor and the unloading valves can stick in the unload position. I have a parts breakdown of it if you want it.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Tony, I don't see anything like that governor on my compressor. There is also a round governor in my WB28T maintenance manual that I don't have either. Here are a couple of pictures of my compressor. There is a valve on top that appears to be frozen, at least I cannot move it with moderate pressure, and I'm thinking that is part of the problem. Does anyone recognize this compressor ? The one on the WB is similar but not identical. I'm open to any suggestions anyone has.

Tony, that SR501 is some sort of electrical gizmo, did you mean to post something different ?

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/755c69dd-89cc-41f0-b8ae-9cda.jpg

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By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Jeff that is an early Bendix, its known as the 7 1/4, they are slow pumpers, that is the unloader on top if I remember, I don't think I have a book on it, get it oiled up and get that cross to moving and I believe it'll work.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
TonyClemens (01/12/2013)
I still have the 5 gallon boat gas tank that was installed on my '56 WC22PLt. I had the driver's side saddle tank boiled out. The shop had to cut a few access holes in the tank to get out all the old crud in it. That old sour varnished gas sure does stink.


The alcohol they're adding to gas is causing gas tanks to rust. You can seal the inside of the tank to solve the problem permanently but it's a little pricey. $130.00 per 100 gallon tank for the chemicals to clean it out and seal it.
By TonyClemens - 8 Years Ago
Eddy, this product is what I used to seal the tank. http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ARK-01
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Jeff Lakaszcyck (03/12/2013)
Tony, I don't see anything like that governor on my compressor. There is also a round governor in my WB28T maintenance manual that I don't have either. Here are a couple of pictures of my compressor. There is a valve on top that appears to be frozen, at least I cannot move it with moderate pressure, and I'm thinking that is part of the problem. Does anyone recognize this compressor ? The one on the WB is similar but not identical. I'm open to any suggestions anyone has.

Tony, that SR501 is some sort of electrical gizmo, did you mean to post something different ?

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/755c69dd-89cc-41f0-b8ae-9cda.jpg

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/7c3d8f3e-adec-46b0-8e71-cee1.jpg


Oops on that attachment.

Attached is all I have for a similar BW compressor. Aaron is right, that is the unloading mechanism on top and when the cross head is in the down position it is unloading. It looks like it is in the up position. There is a little piston controlled by the governor valve under its tail
that forces the unloading valves open. The small copper line I believe is the pilot line. I believe there is a reed valve behind the air inlet that might not be seating. That would cause an unload condition. I think the two large hex caps on top are the discharge valve retainers.

By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
Do you have this style governor? The roundish part in top right of picture. This is on my '48 International KB8.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/06ffd069-259f-4730-8503-87e5.jpg

In any case you should be able to trace the line back from your unloader to find yours. When you aired up the truck, where did you supply air? It is possible there is a one-way valve in the system that would prevent the entire system being pressurized and would hide a leak. If you pull the outlet line off at the compressor or the tank you will be able to feel if it is pumping air at all. You said "Even with the leaks I think the compressor on the truck should be able to keep the air up, it will only pressurize to about 20 or so.".....is the pressure dropping to 20 and then holding? If so I would say it is pumping air, you just have too many leaks, and the compressor can't build air fast enough to replace, or the compressor is worn or has stuck rings so it just can't build higher pressure. The old compressors really don't push much air, if you have a bunch of small leaks that may be your main problem.

Tad
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Tad that's the same type governor on a 47 Autocar C100 I worked on. It controlled a compressor similar to Jeff's.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv84/abullard/Autocar/100_0850.jpg

This governor needed adjusting but the unloader worked OK.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
TonyClemens (03/12/2013)
Eddy, this product is what I used to seal the tank. http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ARK-01


Same concept http://justoldtrucks.gostorego.com/gold-standard-tank-sealer.html a cleaner to get rid of the petroleum residues, an acid to etch the inside of the tank, mine also disolves any rust, a sealer to protect the tank interior.

I talk to a lot of people usnig various tank sealers and what they tell me is the cream colored sealers are failing with the alcohol/ethanol gas combinations. Keep an eye on them. If you have a clear glass globe on your fuel pump, when you start seeing your gas change color its your tank sealer disolving. You need a sealer that is impervious to alcohol, not just resistant, KBS Gold Standard Tank Sealer is impervious to alcohol and ethanol and that's why it is the number 1 selling tank sealer. If you have a failing tank sealer, it has to be removed, before you can reseal it and I can help with that too. I have an aircraft strength paint stripper that will take them out.

Tony,

I'm also wondering if we shouldn't be sealing the inside of the air tanks on our old trucks. I doubt any of them had any kind of protective coating on the inside and most all of them have seen their fair share of moisture. How many times have we heard about someone looking for replacements from pin holes?
By TonyClemens - 8 Years Ago
Eddy, supposedly this sealer is not affected by alcohol. They used to advertise that it was the only sealer approved for aircraft use but I don't see it on the description anymore. I don't think I'd want to operate an airplane with a gas tank that a sealer had to be used on.

I've had to replace an air tank on my '56 and '59. I would think a new tank would be sealed. Not sure how you would thoroughly clean and seal an old tank, I guess it could be cleaned with acid, rinsed and sealed.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Thanks to Fred Dyke and Tad I found my governor on the firewall (I thought it would be on the compressor). I took the cover off and it seems to be free. I took the air lines off of the compressor and ran the engine and there was nothing, not even an attempt to make air, so as soon as I can I'll be taking the top off the compressor to see what's what. I'm thinking Tony may be right about the reed valves not seating. Thanks for all the help so far.

I'm very pleased with the engine so far, it starts right up on the 2nd turn of the starter and idles right away. I don't see any smoke either.
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
Tony Bullard, is that a Hall Scott 590 in that Autocar C100?
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Jeff,I'm still running a couple of those kidney shaped governors,they are adjustable,be carefull of the copper finger in the housing it is filled with an expanding gas of some sort, don't horse with it,just the set screw and stop at the other end.
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Hamish (04/12/2013)
Tony Bullard, is that a Hall Scott 590 in that Autocar C100?


Hamish that's the 935-G1, 294 HP @ 2400. It's a strong old beast with a really nice deep sound.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv84/abullard/Autocar/100_0819.jpg

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv84/abullard/Autocar/100_0817.jpg
By clyde318 - 8 Years Ago
Looks like you are making some progress. Can't wait to get down there, so I can see it in the flesh.
By Shifty - 8 Years Ago
Gas tanks, and air tanks.

The rust in between the tank, and the straps is where I've had trouble before.
Had air leaking, and couldn't hear where it was with engine running.
Wouldn't stay built up long enough to find it with engine off.
I'd say air up your tanks from your shop compressor to see if you have a leak.
One fuel tank was so rusty inside I finally had one end cut off. Sand blasted inside, and welded back together.
Been good ever since, but this new gas makes me wonder what is going to happen next.
Hope this helps.
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
Thanks Tony, beautiful old truck.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Tony, is that the same truck Ray Haluch showed at Springfield ?
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I pulled the head off the air compressor this evening, the reed valves look ok but the unloader valve cross is still frozen. It almost looks like it could be hanging the unloader valves open, although that seems unlikely. In any event I'm going to free everything up and put it back together. I'll need a head gasket for the compressor, anyone know where I can get one ? Aaron says the compressor is a Bendix 7-1/4.
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Jeff I have an old huge book on BW if I remember tomorrow I'll look for a part number if it shows the breakdown.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Thanks Aaron. This Bendix compressor from a 1946 Motors Manual looks the same, the gasket I need has the same bolt pattern as the inset illustration.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/397042ef-d3b7-4283-9fd4-6b01.jpg
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Jeff Lakaszcyck (05/12/2013)
Tony, is that the same truck Ray Haluch showed at Springfield ?


Yeah Jeff that's Ray's. I think he had seven trucks at Springfield which is only a small fraction of his collection. Half of it is here at his place in Chelsea and the rest at his business in Ludlow. I'm lucky enough to work on his mechanical projects. He has the equipment to shuffle them around wherever he wants them.

By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Jeff from what I can see it looks to be Part # 203462, that fits several of the 7 1/4 cubic ft compressors,there may be a tag on it to denote other numbers but they would be something like 2-UE or 2-US, but the same gasket looks to fit all series.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Thanks Aaron, that's just what I needed. I found the id tags on the compressors. The WC is a 2E 7-1/4 W. The other one in the WB looks about identical but is a 2UE 7-1/4 VW. The head gasket looks like it is not anything special and is just made out of gasket material, so if I can't find one I will try to make one.
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
I think the UE is also listed,I was going to ask what it was made of, if its odd stuff you might think of sending what you have to Olsen's gaskets and see if Sandy could make one.
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Or make your own from one of these.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-gaskets/=pox8jp

By Don Hancock - 8 Years Ago
Tony,

Don't you just love Mc Master. we use them all the time in work.





Don
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Don, that's my virtual home away form home.
By Eprsplit - 8 Years Ago
Jeff,

Kevin Walker at Walker's Air Brakes has all of the gasket's you could want for that compressor.

I had him rebuild the compressor for my 1951 WC22 and it's exactly like yours.

Ask for Kevin directly, if you don't get what you need I'll go down and pick it up for you.

He is only about 15 miles from my house.

Contact:
Walker Air Brakes

921 E Francis St

Ontario, CA 91761

(909) 947-1141

By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Thanks, I'll give Kevin a try.
By John Gott - 8 Years Ago
Jeff;

I made my own head gasket for my compressor. I see am posting a little late here, but you are on the right track. The unloader needs about 5 to 10 thousands clearance, there is an adjustment. You can use valve grinding compound on the reed valves. You should be able to turn the compressor over by hand and hear it pumping. On your govenor, their is a screen filter on the inlet that should be cleaned and serviced. Your govenor should cut in at 105 pounds and then it sends air to the unloader and then your compressor just vents to atomosphere. Your air tanks will "bleed" down to around 85-90 pounds and then the unloader should close. Also make sure your air cleaner on the compressor is not clogged up, 2 screws hold it on and you wash it out in gas and reoil it.

Also check your quick release valve(s) and relay valve. The Bendix manual says that the diaphrams should be changed yearly, really then just need to be cleaned out.

Can you post a picture of your brake chambers. I might be able to help you out on diaphrams.

John G
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
A little update, I ordered the gasket material from McMaster and am going with plan B, make my own compressor head gasket. I think the reason the compressor wasn't working was because the unloader valves were hanging open. I should mention that while trying to free up the rocker for the unloader valves I cracked the casting it attaches to, I was going to get a replacement but I'll just use the one off the WB instead (and be more careful, DOH !) The engine in the WB is fast becoming a parts donor anyway, it has had penetrant in the cylinders for 3 weeks now and is still locked up tighter than Jack Benny.

John, while I want to get the compressor on the WC working, I'm not going to put a lot of effort in the WC brakes. I just need them to work well enough for a quick trip down a dirt road and make sure 5th gear in the tranny is good. I'm hoping that getting the compressor working will take care of that. However, I'm sure the WB brakes will need a complete rebuild, so I appreciate the advice. Here is the best picture I have of the brake chambers. I think the front look the same.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/c439dd96-0832-4738-a664-a017.jpg
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Whats your question on the brakes Jeff, those are pancake pots are service brake only, you'll have to change over to double cans if you want to put it on the road,unless you have something like the MGM spring brake on the other side of the slack adjusters.
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
Jeff, I guess your WB has a Tru-Stop disc type driveshaft handbrake. Would you really have to fit spring brakes to register this truck for the road? I would have thought that as it never had spring brakes fitted when new then you wouldn't have to update the brakes, as long as what you have works well enough that is.
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
I've been told that unless you are going to run commercially you don't need spring parking brakes on the truck at all. If you're not going to put spring brakes on both rear axles they need to go on the front axle. The inter-axle differential could still allow the truck to move if only on the rear axle.

The only service I would do in your system is to replace hoses and diaphragms, then they would function like new.....but you are just looking for one test drive.....so I wouldn't do anything if the brakes work. Make sure everything moves(s-cam rotates, shoes are free), check the adjustment and you are fine.

Tad
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
I have a White 5000 with just the service chambers on it.The truck is in era of 58-61. From the factory White put a Maxi-Can mounted on frame in front of rear axle with rods connected to both chambers. I would think it was an early design for Maxi'S.I also have a 1960 White Coupe Cab air brake equipped with no Maxi'S from factory it has the Tru-Stop Emergency Brake mounted on driveshaft behind auxiliary trans.for obvious reasons.Keep up the good work Jeff. Joe D.
By Bruce Ohnstad - 8 Years Ago
If you need to just test drive you could find a quiet stretch to get it up to fifth gear and rely on the driveshaft brake. The diaphragms are getting hard to get (but still found through Bendix partsfinder database, and a willing parts clerk...) Check carefully to see that the diaphragm housing base is not cracked, or the top cover. Broken housings will help decide if you need/want to go to a modern brake.

What about brake valves? The Whites used remote mounted brake valves connected by linkage to the pedal. This was B4 models. I have a 1947 with a B4.

1942 Motors Manual says the B4 valves were used for larger flow without a relay valve. Treadle valve model D was used with relay valves, the relay being able to put volume to the brakes.

Bruce
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I think I confused the issues a little here between my 2 trucks. The WC28 it the one I am currently working on. This truck is running and will be the engine and transmission donor for the WB28 with the tandem rears. I haven't mentioned this but at 30 psi the WC had a little brake action, so I think that when I get the compressor working properly the brakes will work well enough for a short test drive. Once I am done with the test drive the WC will be ready to come apart.

John Gott had asked what type of brake chambers I had, so I posted the photo of WB rear brake chambers. I am planning to rebuild the brakes on this truck. The discussion on the parking brakes has been interesting. The I think the WB has the "MGM" parking brake that Aaron describes, at least the brackets are there on the frame and there is a parking brake valve on the dashboard (the red valve). The actuators are missing though. The slack adjusters on the forward rear each have a shackle on them for the cables to attach to. The WC parts truck has a True-Stop hand brake (currently frozen up). Since this is attached to the transmission I will be using, I was planning to use the True-Stop in the WB, if for no other reason than I like the look of the handbrake in the cab. I am wondering though, how hard is it to find the "MGM" actuators ? And what does MGM stand for ?

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/0ff8aa77-6f0e-4dd3-bccb-07df.jpg

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/f44679e0-5fbd-420f-9589-47ae.jpg

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/cfb43441-149e-4ede-bd52-7b7e.jpg
By Stretch - 8 Years Ago
MGM started in 1956 in Cloverdale, CA.

Redwood logging country with steep grades.

Wonder who their first customers were?

MGM were the founders intials, Miller, Gummer, Meyers.
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Doesn't matter commerical or not if a truck is on the hwy it will have emergency spring brakes, that is one of 3 laws that were set up as retrofits.
Last I had seen the MGM cans are still avaliable.
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
Aaron (14/12/2013)
Doesn't matter commerical or not if a truck is on the hwy it will have emergency spring brakes, that is one of 3 laws that were set up as retrofits.
Last I had seen the MGM cans are still avaliable.


Do you have a reference to the actual law....I'm a bit of a doubting Thomas people start quoting laws.

Tad
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
Aaron That is good to know.Thanks Joe D.
By Hamish - 8 Years Ago
That is interesting about MGM Stretch, I always thought it was Metro Goldwyn Mayer-but I think that MGM was involved in a different line of business entirely.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
Tad you have to be careful with these folks from the left coast. You never know when that grape juice they're drinking fermented.
By J Hall - 8 Years Ago
That looks like a fun project. I remember as a kid, we had a similar White out in the trees.

That was about 40 years ago, and that truck wasn't even close to as good shape as yours.
By Park Olson - 8 Years Ago
Aaron (14/12/2013)
Last I had seen the MGM cans are still avaliable.[/quote]

In the early '90's I was working at a shop in Charlotte that did some prototype work and a small production run of cast alloy brake cans for MGM.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
The compressor on the WC is back together, and it is making air. Basically all I did was take the head apart and clean everything up, make sure everything was free and adjusted properly, and re-assemble. I probably could have done everything without taking the head off but now I know what the inside of a compressor looks like. The hardest part was making the head gasket. The old one was too torn up to use as a pattern, so I took some careful measurements off the head and layed it out on the gasket material (thanks Tony). I searched all over the house looking for something that was the same diameter as the cylinders to use as a pattern. It turns out the cap to my daughter's hair spray was the perfect size. She hasn't missed it yet.

It was getting dark when I finally started the truck this evening and it very slowly built air. After about 5 minutes it was at 60 and climbing when something blew in the drivers windshield wiper motor, it started running at about warp speed and wouldn't turn off. Of course this side had a wiper arm with no wiper so it didn't do the windshield any favors. I shut the truck down and I'll cap off the wiper line tomorrow. I'm pretty confident the compressor will get to at least 90 and overcome whatever various leaks are present in the system.
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Just go ask any DOT and he'll tell you.

Jeff those 7 1/4's pump pretty slow, you almost don't see the gauge move.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
Aaron (17/12/2013)

Jeff those 7 1/4's pump pretty slow, you almost don't see the gauge move.


Thanks Aaron, I was wondering what was "normal".
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
A trick I use to make a gasket like that is to lay the gasket blank on a piece of wood and clamp the head to it. With a drill transfer the bolt holes through the head into the wood. Now you've got all the holes where you want them. Secure the blank to the compressor with short bolts and washers. With both pistons down a little tap lightly with the ball end of a ball peen hammer where you THINK the edge of the cylinder bore would be. After a while you'll feet the edge. The contact point between the ball and the edge will cut the gasket. Work your way around the bores to finish. Do the same with the water jacket holes if need be. If done right the peening action will not hurt the bores.

You may be able to do the perimeter in the same manner either on the compressor of head.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
Aaron (17/12/2013)
Just go ask any DOT and he'll tell you.

Jeff those 7 1/4's pump pretty slow, you almost don't see the gauge move.


ding, ding, ding you're asking the wrong person, you know what that answers going to be before you ask.

this doesn't sound like Aaron. His account must have been hacked. or does that only apply to chicken coops and permits?
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
It would be the same answer I gave.
Anything after 1960, or there abouts, is to have emergency brakes if its on the hwy, and all before that will be retrofitted.
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
Aaron (17/12/2013)
Just go ask any DOT and he'll tell you.


Ask I did:

Here is their answer:
"Dear customer, Not sure who told you that your vehicles would require to be retrofitted. I do not know of any such changes in the law. I also checked with a John Connolly from New York State Department of Transportation (Intermediate Transportation Specialist 1) . He advised these vehicles were originally manufactured as commercial and built in compliance with the FMVSS standard at that time. Current regulations uphold the building standard at the time the vehicle was originally manufactured.These "vintage" vehicles were manufactured prior to CFR 49, 571.121 Standard No. 121: Air brake systems(January 1, 1975) therefore CFR 49, 393.40(b)(2)applies for the Service brake component, CFR 49 393.40(c) applies for the Parking Brake, and CFR 49 393.40(e) applies for the Emergency Brake standard.NO retroactive requirement exists. Go to WWW.FMCSA.DOT.GOV for the referenced regulations."

Tad
By Aaron - 8 Years Ago
Don't know what and how you asked the question but that answer doesn't seem right.
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
The NY state DMV has an online question/answer system. This is their official, in writing, response that I got. Wherever, or whomever, you got your information about any required retrofit was not correct.

That's why I wanted you to be able to source the official law/regulation, there is a lot of incorrect information floating around out there. A lot of inaccuracies come up when people start asking about if a CDL is required or not.....but that is another can of worms there.

Tad
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
I was always under the impression that to be legal a vehicle only had to comply with the regulations that were in effect at the time of manufactor.
By Eddy Lucast - 8 Years Ago
As far as a CDL goes. You need one to drive a commercial vehicle and PeterJs Mack is no longer a commercial vehicle or even a truck for that matter. Its now an antique car.
By Don Hancock - 8 Years Ago
With a model T on the plate!
By John Woge - 8 Years Ago
[quote]Jungerfrosch (13/12/2013)
I've been told that unless you are going to run commercially you don't need spring parking brakes on the truck at all. If you're not going to put spring brakes on both rear axles they need to go on the front axle. The inter-axle differential could still allow the truck to move if only on the rear axle.

Why is this ? I don't quite understand how the power divider will let the wheels turn if the spring brakes are applied ?

Our '66 KW only has them on the back axle. I assumed it to be original....but it may of been switched by someone ?

John
By Stretch - 8 Years Ago
I'm with John, I don't get why cans on the back axle alone would not work.

The power divider is another differential that splits power to the other 2 axle differentials

If the rear axle spring brakes were applied, i agree that the forward axle would still be able to turn, but if the back wheels
are locked, how is the truck going to move unless the tires drag or are lifted off the ground?
By Jungerfrosch - 8 Years Ago
Stretch (20/12/2013)
I'm with John, I don't get why cans on the back axle alone would not work.

The power divider is another differential that splits power to the other 2 axle differentials

If the rear axle spring brakes were applied, i agree that the forward axle would still be able to turn, but if the back wheels
are locked, how is the truck going to move unless the tires drag or are lifted off the ground?


Ok, fine...... you're both right......I over(or I suppose under is more like it) thought that one a little bit. If the cans are on the rear axle you will of course still have two wheels that are locked and cannot turn. In some cases there could be a slight advantage on having the cans on the front axle as it would also lock the drive shaft to the rear axle. This would give you slightly better holding on a slippery surface, but probably negligibly so If you were to put the truck in gear with the cans on the rear axle you would have the same effect anyway.

The only other advantage I can think of on a vintage truck is that the front cans would be more hidden so it would be more original looking.

Short of a drive shaft failure the drum brake on the shaft if properly adjusted will serve just fine as well.

Tad
By Stretch - 8 Years Ago
IIRC some trucks had the spring brakes on the forward axle and the air system also engaged the inter axle lock when

the brakes were set. I can see the advantage in that.
By wayne graham - 8 Years Ago
Stretch, Navistar was doing the deal with the power divider, don't know if they still are. If you want both axles to hold just put parking chambers on both axles. I really thought it was quite simple. Being in heavy haul we always run them on all axles. Park 150,000 on a grade and try holding it with one axle. don't work to swell. Wayne
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
There were some air shifted 2 speed rears that plate would say do not park truck in high range. Anyone know why ? thanks Joe D.
By wayne graham - 8 Years Ago
Joe, If I got it right the reasoning was that when the air went down the axle would try to shift to the low side and probably be in nuetral. I am assuming the range shift was spring loaded to the low side and air held it in high. Don't know if they still operate that way or not. Glenn and others will probably know better than I. Was this also the deal on 3 speed eatons. I don't remember. Wayne
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
Wayne thanks your answer makes sense.Joe D.
By Junkmandan - 8 Years Ago
I believe the earliest air shifted 2 speeds were spring loaded to low, possibly before they had the torsion springs in the shifter . Our town highway department wrecked their White WA 22 dump truck parked on a bank in their shale pit, when it jumped out of high range and rolled over. Truck was scrapped . But the warning was pretty standard on the instruction plates .
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago

"Was this also the deal on 3 speed eatons"

I don't remember Eaton three speeds but the motorized 2 speeds would stay wherever the high-low limit switches stopped them. Either in high or low.

Was this also the deal on 3 speed eatons.
By chocko - 8 Years Ago
Tony by motorized I assume you mean electric.Wayne there were some 3 speed rears that were air shifted.I have a NOS 3 speed air shifter I bought for a Diamond T COE with 3 speed rears,I junked truck before using it. Joe D.
By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Well here's an interesting concept.

The Eaton 3-speed was in tandem axle applications. Actually both axles were 2 speed axles but using the interaxle differential between the axles you could have a 3 speed. Low, both axles were in low; intermediate, one axle in low and the other in high; high, both axles in high.


This had to be very hard on the interaxle differential. I can’t imagine they ever tried it.

By Tony Bullard - 8 Years Ago
Wayne's right about the air shift going through nutral as the air goes down.

Description and Operation (Shift Unit)

The Air Shift Unit is engineered for efficient performance and built for reliable, service-free operation.

Operation of the unit is as follows: The shift unit is mechanically connected to the axle shift fork and shifts axle into Low or High range.

The unit consists of an air chamber, piston, compression spring and mechanical linkage. When air is admitted to the chamber or cylinder, the piston travels downward against a

compression spring, transferring motion through a push rod and actuating lever to the shift fork, shifting the axle into High range. Exhaust of air pressure permits the heavy-duty spring to return the axle gearing to Low range.

By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 8 Years Ago
I've made some good progress on the WC parts truck. I'm really just using it as a rolling test bed to check out the engine and accessories, and the transmission. The engine starts with just a few turns of the starter, and runs and idles smoothly. The compressor builds air and even with a few various air leaks in the system it will hold over 90 psi while running. 3 of the 4 brakes work, the right rear had a rust hole in the chamber so I disconnected it.

The WC has a Timken-Detroit double reduction 2 speed rear which was not shifting. I suspected it was stuck in high, and that proved to be the case. The rear is air shifted by a lever on the dashboard. After verifying that the valve on the dashboard was working, I removed the actuator on the rear end and disassembled it, and found the piston and shaft were stuck. With a little work it was freed up, and would move in both directions using shop air. Incidentally, on this setup the actuator is not spring loaded in either direction, for whichever range is selected the air pressure holds the mechanism in place. Both ranges in the rear end are working now, and in low range I was able to verify that 5th gear in the transmission is working without leaving my driveway. I'll be looking to sell or trade this rear end in the future.

One problem I haven't mentioned yet is that the truck would blow water out of the radiator after running for 5-10 minutes or so. Neither the WC or WB had radiator caps when they arrived, which apparently made the radiators very inviting rodent hotels. I didn't think about this before starting the WC for the 1st time, but it became obvious pretty quickly that the radiator was full of crap. This weekend I disconnected the radiator hoses, removed the gooseneck and thermostat from the engine, and flushed out both the engine and radiator. The engine seemed pretty clean but the radiator was a mess. The top outlet was completely plugged. I spent probably an hour and a half flushing the radiator from the bottom up until stuff quit coming out of the top tank. I was hoping that this would cure the cooling problems but today it overheated after running for about 20-25 minutes, blowing the water out of the radiator again (I still don't have a cap on it). I think I either have a bad thermostat, bad water pump, or I didn't get all the crud out. I don't think I have a head gasket problem. Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much more time on it before I start taking the engine and transmission out.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/ee88e366-8a27-451a-8a4f-125e.jpg

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/92843a0e-7eda-4a22-9807-8303.jpg
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
It's been a while since I have updated this thread, probably since it has been a while since I have worked on the Whites. I have done as much as I can to the WC28 parts truck before tearing it down. While this truck runs great, after pulling the thermostat it is still blowing water out of the radiator, which leads me to believe it has a blown head gasket. You always wonder why these old beasts stop being driven, and I think I have found the answer. No big deal, I will replace the head gasket, and the water pump for good measure, when I remove the engine and transmission.

Since I am at a good stopping point on the Whites I decided to tackle a few other projects. My Jeep DJ-3A was last painted in '87 and is starting to show it, plus it has several areas of primer on it I am tired of looking at. I've decided to spruce it up a little for our 1st annual Florida ATCA show in Leesburg in the 1st week of March. I'm re-painting most of the black parts, and will repaint the body where it is needed. Here is what the black parts looked like last weekend. After touching up some of the black this morning I will start the body work today.

After the Jeep is done I am finally going to get power and lights out to my garage, then I will begin work in earnest on the WB28.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/Uploads/Images/33b8c611-1e67-4dfd-a590-51a9.jpg

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
On another note, I found out yesterday that my neighbor Tommy Henderson passed away last Friday. He was a long time Space Shuttle worker at the launch pads before being caught up in the layoffs at the end of the program. Tommy was a good neighbor and always willing to help out. I used Tommy's fork lift for about six months when I was building my garage in 2010. I last saw Tommy when we unload my Whites in November, helping me out as usual. Rest in peace Tommy, you will be missed. That's Tommy on the left, next to Daryl's driver Dan.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
The Jeep is painted and back together, just in time for the ATCA truck show in Leesburg this week. Here's a few pictures.
http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/1197a45c-851c-4c3c-9649-db21.jpg
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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Now to move on to bigger and better things.
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By Freightrain - 7 Years Ago
The ol Jeeps looks good.  I'm pretty fond of that shade of blue.  If I could get myself to take the plunge I would strip my Harley and paint it a similar color, with a bit more wow factor(House of Color pearl).
By TonyClemens - 7 Years Ago

Jeff, I like the Jeep, I like the Whites and I really like your shop. I hope to eventually build a 40 x 60 shop.

By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Tony, I built the shop in 2010 with just the Jeep to put in there. My hope was, "if you build it they will come". So far they have. Still room for a few more trucks though.  
By Wolfcreek_Steve - 7 Years Ago
Tony, build it 100 X 200, it will still be too small, but tolerable for a while


Larry, pearls are good, but my pixie dust really makes a paint job pop. (.004 metal flake) some colors are holographic.
Pictures don't do justice to this stuff!
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By Aaron - 7 Years Ago
http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/16238576-60c7-4149-9f3c-de53.jpg

Keep talking like that Jeff and it'll look like this.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
There's some nice stuff there Aaron. How big is your shop ?
By Aaron - 7 Years Ago
Not big enough.

Technially 50 X 80, but I used about 18 feet on the end for a toy room.
Heres a shot from the other end, one of these days some of the loft is gonna be an apartmenthttp://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/d766bb6d-0979-45bd-8676-eb97.jpg
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Nice. I plan to build an air conditioned 12x20 workshop in the corner of mine.
By Aaron - 7 Years Ago
I was thinking of putting in a pump room in there but didn't, the enclosed area is going to be for a few glass cases of odds and ends,with a kitchen and washer dryer on the end,just kinda a kick back spot,the open space in front of it is my blast cab,welders, torch,drill and what not,its a small dirty room as I call it that way the grindings and odds and ends don't end up all over the rest of the shop, big cutting or grinding I do outside, I don't do big welding jobs like truck beds and such on a big scale so I can contain the crud usually, I want to put one more enclosed bay in for other things but haven't got to that point yet.
By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Aaron don't you have a military command car and some Cats and other stuff? Where do you keep them?

By Aaron - 7 Years Ago
Most of that stuff belongs to Brad the only two trucks that are mine are the the two in the far side the red and yellow one,the Helms coaches, Kaddy,one park bus are his along with  the other red Pete, the other park bus belongs to a guy in Mt and the brown Pete is Chans,this pic is a couple years old,that picture changes weekly,Dennis's C 600 is in there now, I've got a 4 car barn here at the house with more stuff and the farm tractors are along side of that in another building,plus my back yard is starting to look like Jean La Chances I gotta get rid of some stuff.
By Eddy Lucast - 7 Years Ago
Aaron (3/7/2014)
Not big enough.

Technially 50 X 80, but I used about 18 feet on the end for a toy room.
Heres a shot from the other end, one of these days some of the loft is gonna be an apartmenthttp://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/d766bb6d-0979-45bd-8676-eb97.jpg

Throwing you out is she?

By Aaron - 7 Years Ago

 Not fast enough.
I happened to get in a position where I was think this morning, have fun with that will you,how about a page for members shops,we stepped all over Jeffs page here and a lot of guys have some real bitchen places to work /play in, I like Tony's place, I've been to Hansons shop,Jeff has a new place to play Dennis loves to post pictures and his storage is pretty neat along with Michelles,I know there are more out there.
By Eddy Lucast - 7 Years Ago
You know how to hurt a guy don't you? What do I get to do post? a picture of my driveway with a 2 feet of snow or 6 inches of mud?
By Wolfcreek_Steve - 7 Years Ago
Eddy I guess I'm one step up on you. It ain't a very big step though! 26'x36' 9' high inside. I got to stick with small trucks. when the Autocar is done, I won't be able to tip the cab inside the shop. :-(  I got this much snow left as of today, 3-13-14http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/876d2004-fa2b-4ca6-9d77-96ad.jpghttp://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/09d0b73a-b9a0-4948-a5bd-c245.jpg
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Eddy Lucast (3/13/2014)
You know how to hurt a guy don't you? What do I get to do post? a picture of my driveway with a 2 feet of snow or 6 inches of mud?

Eddy, I seem to recall that you have a little space in a certain truck whisperer's "moveable" shop. Of course, you need a ladder to work on your truck.

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/9ce20be4-0d55-435d-b76e-5b72.jpg

By Eddy Lucast - 7 Years Ago
Some folks have a wood pile, he has a truck pile!
Trying to get the saw mill to do more than just make promises so it could at least look like a truck again would be helpful.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Life has kept getting in the way of the WB28 project for the past several months but I think I will finally have some time to devote to it. I re-arranged the garage a little so I could put the WC28 in the back corner so I could begin removing the engine and transmission, and the other parts that I need. To do this I had to push the WB back a few feet with the Kubota. Well, it wouldn't budge, it turns out the right wheel on the front tandem was locked up tight. This was kind of surprising since it rolled ok in November when I put it in the garage. I pulled the axle this evening and found the outer wheel bearing was pretty rusty, in fact I didn't see any lube at all. I squirted the bearing down good, first with WD40 and then PB Blaster and got the wheel where it would turn well enough to move the truck. I figured I was going to have to completely go through the rears anyway, but I'm still hoping it won't need much more than bearings and seals, and brakes. But first things first, I want to get the WB to where it will move under its own power.   
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Tonight I started pulling drain plugs. All water and no lube out of the front rear (about a gallon). About a gallon of water out of the rear rear before lube started flowing. 3 quarts of water out of the brownie before lube started. Just water out of the transmission, no lube. And 3-4 gallons of water out of the engine, no oil at all. At least I know for sure the engine and tranny are toast. But I'm worried about the rears. My original plan was to start pulling the engine out of the WC but I think I'll leave it together until I can see what the tandems need and if they are worth dealing with. I pulled the plug on the WC transmission too, just black stuff came out thank god !
My rears are Eatons, and look like the ones in this ad except my axle tubes are round. Does anyone know what these are, and if parts are still available ?

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By TonyClemens - 7 Years Ago

Jeff. don't feel alone about the engine. The sparkplugs were all rusted off on my '51 WC22 Jumbo cab. When I pulled out the dipstick, the lower part that should be in oil was corroded off. I pulled the head and water had been on top of #6 piston. Tried everything to unstick the engine. Pulled the pan and there are cracks in the side of the block and cracks around the main bearing supports. Even with my limited mechanical ability I know the engine is toast. Haven't looked at the trans or rear end lube. This truck's probably going to sit awhile. Make you a good deal on a rare Jumbo cab White.

By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Jeff the tandem drive axles look like Eaton "M" Series models 22M, 28M, 32M, 36M and 42M. You may be lucky that they mostly full of water and not just a little with no oil. Once the water is depleted of oxygen the submersed parts don't rust as badly as the parts exposed to air and condensation. I would guess most of the parts would clean up and even the bearings may be reusable. I get all my bearings at Motion Industries by bearing number not application.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Tony, I hope you are right about the water, I'm working on getting the front differential out now so I should know soon. I'm not sure if I should remove the power divider and differential together or separate the power divider first ? Photo attached. I only got one driveshaft out today as I had to make a puller for the universal joint caps. I really need to find a manual on these rears. I'm going to look for a newer Motors manual, mine only goes to '46 and these Eaton rears are not in it.

I figured I could probably source the bearings from the bearing numbers, but I'm afraid I may have a problem with hub seals, axle seals, and pinion seals. That 32M model sounds a little familiar, I think I saw that embossed into one of the housings. I'll have to look next time I am under the truck.

Tony C, fortunately I have a good engine in the WC28, so no worries there. I like your Jumbo cab, but I barely have time for one project right now !

http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/e80c1038-67e1-43de-888d-2e9d.jpg

By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Jeff Motor's Truck Repair Manual 21st edition has very detailed repair instructions for your Eatons.
Just a few places to get it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-MOTORS-TRUCK-Repair-Service-Shop-Manual-21st-Edition-Book-/300638318604
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?ds=30&kn=21st&tn=motor%27s+truck+repair+manual

Or I'd be glad to make good photocopies and email you the pages.
Edit: From just a quick read it looks like the pinion shaft and power divider can come of as a unit.


By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
I got your email Tony, thanks a bunch !! That's just what I need. When I get home from work I can look at it on something bigger than this iPhone !
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
I got the front differential and power divider out tonight. It looks ugly, but the rust is more like a paste and I don't see any pitting so far. The "paste" comes off pretty easily. The pinion gear looks relatively clean, from what I can see, so I am hoping the power divider is not too bad. I'll be getting the rear differential out next.

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By Bruce Ohnstad - 7 Years Ago
That's shocking, Jeff.  I wonder how it could have filled that much in all boxes.  It must be condensation.  I wonder if some people drain the boxes for some reason?  We bought a C 800 fuel truck with transmission and rear empty of oil.

That old heavy grease was a good preservative, so it may have coated the steel enough.  Like you say, a small amount of surface rust might be ok on a hobby truck.  You can live with rough bearings if they are not under heavy load or long trips. 

My Colorado truck 3 speed Brownie was missing the PTO cover.  No oil, an inch of dirt, rust on the gears.  They cleaned up quite well, although Colorado rust is minimal compared to wetter climates.
Bruce
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Bruce, I'm sure this truck sat in a lot of water for a while, when underneath you can see a definite line where the surface rust starts on the sheet metal. The water was at least up to the hubs and running boards, and probably higher for the engine to be full of water. It's much more than condensation. No telling how many years the water has been in there, Ken says the truck was high and dry when he picked it up in South Dakota. I'll be tearing everything down and if any of the bearings are questionable I plan to replace them. I'll be getting an education on Eaton rears in the school of hard knocks.  
By Eddy Lucast - 7 Years Ago
Jeff, I have what you need to get rid of the old oil and the rust. I'm just trying to decide if I should ship it to you in Florida. I'll also have it with me in Springfield if you have room for 2, 5-gallon pails. My soap will get rid of the grease and RustBlast will get rid of the rust. I've been selling it to guys with motors rusted solid. Everyone of them says it frees them up overnight.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Eddy, I sent you an email. RustBlast may be just what I need for several different things.
Here is my back yard power divider stand.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
The rear differential looks much better.

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By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Wow that back one does look a lot better Jeff. I agree with Bruce that for a hobby truck you can get away with using a lot of "questionable" parts if you get rid of all the rust and clean everything up good.
By jhancock - 7 Years Ago
I'll second that.  Are you working on two different trucks at the same time?

Hopefully, the front cleans up well for you.
By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
The two Jeff just posted are from the same truck.

Front and back of Eaton M series

By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
jhancock (5/19/2014)
I'll second that.  Are you working on two different trucks at the same time?



I'm really only working on one truck. The goal is to get the WB28 tandem running and driving. I was ready to pull the engine and transmission out of the WC28 parts truck when I found all the water in the WB. Now my priority is to assess any damage from the water and fix it before installing the good engine and transmission.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
It has been awhile since the last update but I have been working on the WB when I can. I have been disassembling the front differential and power divider and it has been fighting me tooth and nail. The differential and ring gear came out fairly easy but the input and output shaft yokes have been another story. My 25 year old impact was not budging the nuts, so I bought a new Ingersol Rand with 780 lbs of reverse torque. It still wouldn't move the output yoke nut and I had to apply a fair amount of heat to get it to turn. Then the input shaft yoke did not want to come off, so more heat until my 2 leg puller broke ! I got a new puller, and again with the heat it finally started to move, but I had to keep the heat on it until it was about 1/2 off to keep it moving. Sheesh ! Today I got the input, output, and pinion shafts out and the cases are now bare. While everything looks pretty crummy, there are no broken gears or other parts, but I think most of the bearings have had it due to the water. There are several index marks on the components so I know it has been apart before plus there is a mixture of Timken, Hyatt, and MCR bearings. I still have to disassemble the pinion shaft and the axle differential, then I can start cleaning parts up. The only oil I could find in the whole unit was on the input shaft under the sleeves.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Based on the parts I have seen I have an Eaton 22M or 28M power divider, I am not sure which yet, or how to tell the difference. I Imagine it has something to do with the weight rating of the rears.

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By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
First photo is the pinion shaft and gears, 2nd 2 are the input shaft and inter-axle differential, assembled and disassembled. Notice the oil on the input shaft in the last photo, the only oil I have found in the unit so far.

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By Wolfcreek_Steve - 7 Years Ago
To be dry and not burned up, my guess is that someone drained the oil for dis-assembly, then changed his mine and never completed the job, maybe found the parts he needed already removed, somewhere else
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Steve, it is a real mystery where all the oil went and where the water came from. The engine and transmission were the same way. The rear diff and brownie had a lot of water but at least there was oil too. It is almost as if someone did it on purpose.
By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
If the truck had been below the high tide mark couldn't the water have seeped in and displaced the oil?
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Yes, and it does appear to have been in some high water for a while. But the oil should have stayed on top of the water, which it did in the rear diff and the brownie.
By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Is this a vent in the the top of the power divider?
http://forums.justoldtrucks.com/uploads/images/77f7269a-8f52-4ee2-a889-11f6.jpg

That could let the oil out.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
No, that is just a plug. I have been wondering if there should be a vent there. A lot of the oil came out through the axle seals, but it could not all leak out there.
By Warren Richardson - 7 Years Ago
Hi Jeff- thanks for posting this fascinating series of tear-down photos.  I suspect that if you clean the parts up and reassemble you will be fine unless you plan to put serious mileage on your restored truck.  Not even sure that would be a problem if you polished the gears and replaced the worst of the bearings. Not sure how to polish gears, but I'd bet someone out there knows a bit about it. Magnetic drain plugs might be helpful but I don't know if they actually attract rust particles.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Warren, so far I don't see any pitting on the gears, I think they have more of a stain if anything. I'll know better when I get everything cleaned up. My thought is I will clean everything up as good as I can and then the gears can polish each other in use .
By Wolfcreek_Steve - 7 Years Ago
How about a hand full of Bon-Ami, that'll clean 'em right up! NOT! LOL
By jhancock - 7 Years Ago
Remember hearing about a guy using Bon Ami to try to get some rings to seal in a small block Chevy.

No idea if it worked or not.  Probably fit the engine rebuild budget....
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Still making slow progress. The front differential is disassembled, and everything is kind of crusty looking. Now the clean up fun begins.

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By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
Nice puller you have there Jeff. If you are going to replace the bearings here’s a trick I use to get the cones off if I can’t get the puller jaws behind it. With the torch snip the roller cage on opposite sides letting the cage and rollers fall off. Quickly heat an orange/white line across the bearing face to make it soft. Peen it with a hammer or strike it with a cold chisel a few times. This will expand and stretch the ID of the bearing allowing it to freely come off even when cold.
By Aaron - 7 Years Ago
Gotta use whats handy,I needed a new bar puller and the parts house wanted 130 $ for one,and I needed it now,I welded a  fine thread nut on my stripped out bar and kept going.
Rube would be proud of us.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
You can do a lot of things with a steering wheel puller and a few home made attachments.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
I'm kind of curious about the black crusty stuff that is on all the spider gears and thrust washers in both the inter-axle and front differential. It looks like carbon that you would find on the inside of a cylinder head. Is this normal, a by-product of the water mixed with the oil (or lack of oil), or a sign that something bad was about to happen ? I have cleaned a little of it off with a wire brush in the 2nd photo.

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By Wolfcreek_Steve - 7 Years Ago
Jeff, in your top picture can I see some wear on the spider closest to the spider gear below it! Maybe the owner knew ge ran it dry and didn't bother to open it up and look.
By Jeff Lakaszcyck - 7 Years Ago
Steve, I'll look at that closer after I get it cleaned up. Thanks for the heads up.
By Tony Bullard - 7 Years Ago
I think the concave spider thrust washers are hardened polished steal that make a none ware surface with the cast iron housing. Once cleaned up and polished I think they will be all right. The flat washer I think was a steel backed powered bronze faced washer held from rotating by two dowels. For all it's going to do I think it will work well just cleaning it up. If you do need new ones you might try Garloc, SKF or Bunting.